How To Multiply Your Branding Revenue (Agency Secrets)

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Journey To Creating A Branding Agency

Stephen Houraghan

Denny, you’ve been a student of Brand Master Academy for probably a couple of years now. I think you are probably the first cohort of students that came through. 

I remember talking to you probably in early 2020, or something like that.

Tell me about your journey to where you are today in terms of your branding strategy and agency.

How has that journey been for you from coming from university to setting up your own, talk to us about that journey for us?

Denny Kurien

I went to university to study graphic design and I graduated from my BFA and MFA in design. 

Worked in the agency world for a couple of years as an art director. Well, it started as a designer and moved on to art director and then a creative director after that. 

Then in 2018, me and my wife, we started our own little boutique branding and design studio here in Toronto called Rayvn.

When we start for this we didn’t really deal much in, we were purely designed and that too, we would take on any work that came our way. 

We allow our usual design which was not really based on strategy. It was more of filling out the questionnaire like

What is your favorite logo?

What is your favorite website look like? 

And it was noticed that the design we came up with was all based on personal preference. 

It was all about looking and seeing what is the top trendiest logo styles are up in 2010, 2020,  2018, what are the top trending kinds of logo styles that, that are on YouTube and that’s what we would basically base our designs on.

It’s like is it on-trend? is it trendy? not necessarily what was right for the client or the client’s customer. 

We were charging like $3000, $4,000 for a whole brand identity package and for us, we thought, okay, that was kind of the standard market rate, really.

Then I saw a YouTube video, I think it was Chris Do, talking about how much they charge for strategy.

I tried to get into the whole like his whole pro group because they have a pro program as well, and it didn’t quite resonate with me and then that was when I came across at

Brand Master Academy where you were talking teaching strategy.

It really simplified the way in which you taught strategy and kind of clicked for me and then we started using basically all the kinds of work that we did. 

The work that you speak off that just recently won, got nominated for the Webby award, which is a law firm branding that we did called a for Normand. It’s a law firm out in Orlando, Florida. 

They were the first clients that we applied the whole brand strategy principle and it was funny because initially, you would never have thought of charging like anywhere.

The kind of stuff that we charged like close to 25K, 30K for a brand identity design project where usually we would be charging the same, like $3000, $5,000.

Thanks to the strategy and thanks to a lot of the things that were discussed in the Facebook group in Brand Masters Academy. 

So it was extremely helpful and we delivered a really good product at the end and got accolades the cause of it.

Challenges About Brand Strategy

Stephen Houraghan

We’ll jump into that.

It’s beautiful work and we can talk about the industry that they’re in and the thinking behind the strategy. 

But before we kind of get to that point you had this epiphany that you were charging $3000 to $4,000.

And you thought to yourself there’s something more

You mentioned Chris Do was talking about how much they charge for strategy. 

When you, you had this epiphany and this realization, that strategy could be the next stepping stone to something bigger.

What was that challenge crossing that bridge and finding out more about strategy?

Where were you and what did you feel that you needed to know?

I know from my point of view when I started to look for this kind of information, there wasn’t too much about the future any of that stuff.

I reverted to books because that’s all it was there. 

Denny Kurien

I think when we, first started, we always used to price things based on the river.

It was like, how much does the logo cost? How much does a website cost? It was almost like being out of a Chinese menu. 

The problem with strategy is that it’s not something you can touch or feel or tangible.

The biggest challenge was describing the client, why they should buy into strategy in the first place.

So that was something that we needed to kind of figure out, but more than that, it gave us like a sandbox to kind of play it.

Like the way you talk about being able to treat Brands like human beings and giving them a personality the way a brand should look like, sound like, act like, those were all things we use that boards verbatim and be described to our client.

Even like Normand said, look, you want more? You don’t want just a little bit design. That’s not what you want. 

What you need is a brand that basically feels human, a brand that has a personality and so we need to do this upfront work, and do the discovery, do the intensive. 

For me, that was kind of like just trying to be able to even put those in words and being able to.

The client now was like the parts where it’s like, oh wow. Like this is, this is powerful stuff. 

Brand Master Secrets Framework Results

Stephen Houraghan

So for those who are listening, who have not taken Brand Master Secrets.

The intensive is kind of the lead product that allows clients to come in on a low investment level and allows the strategist to kind of not flex their muscles, but really kind of educate them on the value of strategy.

So that by the end of that session, they’re ready to go all-in on a full strategy. 

When you had that framework and you the steps that you needed to take, obviously Normand’s turned out to be a hugely successful project for you. 

What was that whole journey like taking them through from intensive strategy to design, to handover, because obviously you were implementing a framework that was new to you.

Of course, the framework gives you the steps, but you have to go out there and do the steps. 

Talk to me about, implementing the Brand Master Secrets Framework for the first time with Normand?

Denny Kurien

It was extremely nerve-wracking. I felt like I was building the plane as I was flying it.

But for some reason, once you started getting into it and started doing the intensive, the most revealing, I mean the stuff, when the client basically starts nodding their heads.

So everything that you say, that’s when you know, all right, we got this in the bag, this is going to work out. 

He was basically like, yeah, like after, even for just the way we small investment up run, you know, we basically took him through just to give him a little bit of the taste, almost like a Boosh Boosh on what his brand.

He was sold after that and here’s the full amount. Let’s just make it happen. 

So you use the intensive as in Brand Master Secrets. 

So it’s done as the presentation and kind of the education platform and from that point, you know, that was it, that presentation was pretty much your sales page and education as well and they were ready to jump in. 

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The Brand Development Process

Stephen Houraghan

Yeah. So running through the strategy with the client you said you were getting that, feeling that the nodding of the head. 

And that feedback which is awesome. That’s exactly what you’re looking for. 

How was the brand development process with them on the communication and the collaboration along the way?

Is that something that you felt that they were engaged in, that they were happy with? They were bought into?

Denny Kurien

Yes, especially after we did the intensive. 

A lot of the stuff that we presented afterward, like mood boards and what is their archetype and everything. It just, they were like, yeah, that’s totally me.

It’s so funny for a law firm to have on Outlaw Archetype is global. It’s like so weird, but like nothing. Exactly. 

That’s exactly what the owner at Norman is. He is that Maverick entrepreneur. He’s that guy who does not follow the status quo, he wants to ruffle feathers.

Brand Agency Vs Personal Brand

Stephen Houraghan

I think that’s a good segue into, to jumping in and kind of showing that this work and showing a little bit of this magic that you’ve created here. 

So I’d like to first jump into your brand first and foremost. 

So this is Rayvn design and, like it’s a beautifully presented sites with your work, but you also have a  personal brand site as well, Denny Kurien. 

I know that a lot of people kind of come to this crossroads of how are we going to present our work? 

Are we going to an agency or am I going to be a personal brand? 

How have you dealt with that? 

And how you juggling both your personal and your business brand together?

Denny Kurien

So our business brand Rayvn, we consist of eight people altogether but my personal brand is where I’m out on social media. 

I’m on Instagram, and LinkedIn that’s where I basically put out content. Rayvn isn’t fully, quite out on social media, but Denny Kurien the brand is.

I do a lot of face talk directly to the camera and I’m talking to Denny Kurien and if they want, they can go to my personal website where it basically says that I am the I’m the creative director of Rayvn.

That’s pretty much how I kind of look at it eventually as I scale. I will need Rayvn to now then kind of like almost the forefront

The kind of more of that heavy lifting. I would have to hire people who are on social media, in which case I will not be using my own personal brand. 

I would have to be using Rayvn as the brand to go in without content.

The Brand Strategy Process

Stephen Houraghan

Let me just jump into this website here. As you said a complete outlaw brand it’s going against the grain. It’s not doing what the rest of them do. 

Can you talk to me about the strategy of this and what you found?

From the work that you did, the digging into the analysis and the research for this brand to come up with this strategy.

Talk to us about that strategy process, particularly for this brand?

Denny Kurien

Yeah, absolutely. So when we did the discovery, initially, when Normand, their previous website, they were like every other generic offer didn’t really have a strong impression. 

They would do all kinds of law, corporate law. It would be civil law and new class action law and all that kind of basically everyone people off the street. 

But then when we dug in further, we asked them, okay, out of all the work that you’ve done so far, which one has been your most fun?

What kind of law or cases have you basically managed to get the most amount of wins?

They said, well, that’s interesting. It turns out that got in a lot of victories in the class action lawsuits. 

So that’s when we decided, okay let’s circle that and did you get let’s drill down a little bit more on that cause it’s the kind of clients who’ve come to you.

Are they people straight off the street, like who are the ones where you kind of target?

And they said, no, it’s not your average, Joe, who kind of contacts us for these kinds of things, because these are people. Like, they go up against the like really big conglomerates. 

Like they will take Disney court, they will take Geico insurance to court and it turns out that the kind of clients that they’re targeting are not the average, Joe who just got into a car accident wants to file a lawsuit.

No, these are actually referring lawyers and judges. 

It’s very different all of a sudden, it’s a very different mentality when you’re targeting those kinds of clients, because one they’re a class, a ruler archetypes, they’re looking for the best of the best. 

They want to see the kind of case studies that you’ve already worked on it.

If you scroll down on the website on Normand website, as you can tell the really bold type and colors, but there’s a section that basically talks about these are the cases that we’re currently working on. 

These are the cases that we want and you can view that. 

They want to know that you are a heavy hitter and you can go up against these big. These big, giant Goliath companies and, and that’s what they’re looking for.

They’re interested in going into the detail, whereas an average consumer, they wouldn’t care about any of these things. 

You know, these are obviously judges and lawyers that they have a testimony. So all of a sudden you’re talking to these kinds, of verbiage you use is you’re using a lot more of that wall language using case studies to basically talk directly to that kind of audience.

They’re like the amount of inquiries the guidance has gone totally off the roof because they’re not all of a sudden, you’re not catering to everyone. 

You’re not talking to the average dude. You’re talking to lawyers and judges. 

Own other law firms, but know that Normand is really niche when it comes to a class action lawsuits and they have a good track record of winning classes.

Imposter Syndrom Client Strategy Process

Stephen Houraghan

I want to talk to you quickly about imposter syndrome. 

Now, obviously you’re running this strategy for the first time and you’re dealing client here who clearly knows his stuff and is dealing with big-time people and obviously can smell BS and doesn’t take any shit.

Talk to me about dealing with him and that level of client with your strategy process?

Denny Kurien

Well, it’s interesting because Normand was a very interesting character.

So you really had to dig in to basically get him to be comfortable to talk like a lawyer. 

But then when you started talking about like you are the Outlaw or the Americ archetype what we referred to another rebel archetype that you might like, which is Harley Davidson.

All of a sudden that just clicked to add because you know, he’s a big biker fan then all of a sudden it’s like you got to talk to them. 

That’s why I think It’s so important when we present archetypes, just like you do we have like a fictional character there. 

No, these are actually referring lawyers and judges. 

It’s very different all of a sudden, it’s a very different mentality when you’re targeting those kinds of clients, because one they’re a class, a ruler archetypes, they’re looking for the best of the best. 

They want to see the kind of case studies that you’ve already worked on it.

If you scroll down on the website on Normand website, as you can tell the really bold type and colors, but there’s a section that basically talks about these are the cases that we’re currently working on. 

These are the cases that we want and you can view that. 

They want to know that you are a heavy hitter and you can go up against these big. These big, giant Goliath companies and, and that’s what they’re looking for.

They’re interested in going into the detail, whereas an average consumer, they wouldn’t care about any of these things. 

You know, these are obviously judges and lawyers that they have a testimony. So all of a sudden you’re talking to these kinds, of verbiage you use is you’re using a lot more of that wall language using case studies to basically talk directly to that kind of audience.

They’re like the amount of inquiries the guidance has gone totally off the roof because they’re not all of a sudden, you’re not catering to everyone. 

You’re not talking to the average dude. You’re talking to lawyers and judges. 

Own other law firms, but know that Normand is really niche when it comes to a class action lawsuits and they have a good track record of winning classes.

So like for the ruler it’s Don from the Godfather and that was actually one of the mood board that we used at the lighting that Francis Copeland does on that.

There’s that famous iconic shots o Don Corleone and he was like I liked that, I liked that powerful lighting. “Yeah. Okay. I can make sense.”

When you start talking on that level, when you start talking in terms of using pop culture, things that he can relate to Harley Davidson, the godfather.

 All of a sudden you’re talking about this level. 

I can understand that because now you’re relating to it. It’s not just all pie in the sky, all that kind of stuff.

Scaling Future Business The Brand Master Secrets Way

Stephen Houraghan

Moving forward with Rayvn now and the processes that you now have in place and obviously Normand was the first time implementing the Brand Master Secrets Framework.

How has that gone since then with other clients and where do you see this going? 

You talked to me earlier about the scale and we do talk about scaling in the right way in Brand Master Secrets. 

How do you see scale happening for you and what’s your vision for Rayvn in the future?

Denny Kurien

I would like to now have been able to hire teams in place whereby my role is purely being the Rainmaker. 

I bring in the client and then be able to have people who will be able to run the strategy, create the brief for the designers, and so on and so forth.

I feel like sometimes I’m being the bottleneck because I need time to, you know, construct a strategy and so on and so forth. 

But so for me to scale, I need someone else now to be able to put together the strategy and do all that.

So that’s purely just kind of the Rainmaker and kind of bring in the clients so on and so forth.

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